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Post by conflictedhusband on May 31, 2018 12:19:27 GMT -6
The issue here is an unwillingness to engage the issue of sexual disinterest, most often in women in the church. We we marry, we pledge fidelity in exchange for exclusive sexual access. when she denies the access, it is a violation of the marriage contract/covenant. Just as most often the Husband is the breadwinner, if he one day decided he didn't feel like going to work or wasn't in the mood to work most of the time, Most Church members would find that troublesome. I don't know how a wife's disinclination to be sexual is any different. The trouble is that most Bishops or other ecclesiastical leaders are not willing to have the discussion with someone else's wife, since most of them have the same issue at home.
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Post by mathieu on Jun 21, 2018 16:11:17 GMT -6
I don't think that leaders (Bishop's) are in a position to ask or have that discussion. If there are issues, if the guy says he's not getting what he needs, then they should be referred to a professional. If she refused to go to a professional, I highly doubtful she would talk to a Bishop in her ward. I think so many people feel that avoidance to sexual things is the best way to deal with it because that's what we are taught as kids and teens. We need to talk more about sex. Talk more about desires and all that. I mean all those on this discussion board can't even use their real names. How many of us can talk openly about sex to others. I know I can't besides my spouse. Maybe a women who is struggling would talk to a friend of sex was more discussed.
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Post by lumpy on Nov 26, 2019 13:20:41 GMT -6
I think for many women, when they have sex, they want to want to have sex. Having sex without desire is not enjoyable for them. Unfortunately, many of these women only desire sex a few times a month or year. It really is a tough call. By the same token, I think that most mature men who have sex with a woman who really doesn't want it find that it's not very enjoyable. My wife hasn't wanted to have sex for years, and I have found that I have very little desire to have sex with a woman who doesn't want it, who doesn't "want me". And I found that when we actually did have sex (back in the day), the knowledge that I was having sex with a woman who didn't really want to was always in the background and made it rather un-enjoyable and disappointing. Since she has no desire for sex and I don't want to have sex with someone who doesn't want to, we just don't anymore. I wish it wasn't that way, but it is and I don't see anything to be done about it because she has no desire or inclination to change, and I'm done fighting about it. There comes a point in life where you just have to accept some things. Kind of like someone who is seriously injured and loses a limb: they hate that they lost it and hate the accommodations that they must make in their lives because of it, but they do have to accept that it is gone. |
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Post by NeverGiveUp on Nov 29, 2019 15:34:47 GMT -6
Yes, decisions have to be made. Are you okay being in a sexless marriage. Are you okay walking away so you can be happy. Are you okay letting go of the deep shame that says you are carnal and sensual and so therefore you are of the devil--which I believe to be a complete lie.
I have recently started working on myself, studying about my attachment style, learning why I am okay with staying in a relationship that is emotionally and physically not fulfilling to me. I have discovered that I am afraid or rejection and abandonment. This Fear keeps me where I am. We (my partner and I) loop over and over and somehow expect different results.
I'm done doing that. I'm working to get healthy, so I can make decisions based on what I actually want. What I choose. That may or may not involve my current wife. I love her so it will be way more complicated than that, but I'm not in a place to make decisions without fear at this point, and I want to be. Living a life of unhappiness is not something the church espouses. They do teach that if you really live it, you will be happy, but I have not experienced that in my life.
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Post by lumpy on Nov 29, 2019 17:32:18 GMT -6
Are you okay letting go of the deep shame that says you are carnal and sensual and so therefore you are of the devil--which I believe to be a complete lie. But the scriptures would suggest to the faithful that it’s NOT a lie: Moses 5:13 — “And men began from that time forth to be carnal, sensual, and devilish.” Carnal: relating to physical, especially sexual, needs and activities. Sensual: relating to or involving gratification of the senses and physical, especially sexual, pleasure. Note how carnal and sensual are directly connected to “devilish”. In other words SEXUAL = BAD Is it any wonder that Church members, especially lifelong members, have trouble feeling that intimacy is a good thing? And how do you encourage your spouse to change those feelings? Sometimes you just can’t, especially if they think you are encouraging them to be devilish, and that it’s you who needs to change. |
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Post by edshubby on Dec 2, 2019 15:33:18 GMT -6
Are you okay letting go of the deep shame that says you are carnal and sensual and so therefore you are of the devil--which I believe to be a complete lie. But the scriptures would suggest to the faithful that it’s NOT a lie: Moses 5:13 — “And men began from that time forth to be carnal, sensual, and devilish.” Carnal: relating to physical, especially sexual, needs and activities. Sensual: relating to or involving gratification of the senses and physical, especially sexual, pleasure. Note how carnal and sensual are directly connected to “devilish”. In other words SEXUAL = BAD Is it any wonder that Church members, especially lifelong members, have trouble feeling that intimacy is a good thing? And how do you encourage your spouse to change those feelings? Sometimes you just can’t, especially if they think you are encouraging them to be devilish, and that it’s you who needs to change. I gave a talk in church that went over this scripture. Basically, IMO, “carnal, sensual, and devilish” are basically another way of saying “the natural man.” Carnal, in the gospel sense, after you strip away the historical and heretical asceticism, doesn’t have a specific sexual meaning. As President Ballard mentioned in his last conference talk: (emphasis added) In short, being carnal is a more general term that refers to self-indulgence, a lack of self-mastery or self-control. As for sensual, I would refer to the “Guide to the Scriptures.” There, it defines sensual and sensuality as “a fondness or desire for unrighteous physical pleasure, especially sexual immorality” (emphasis added). In other words, not all sexuality is condemned by the Scriptures as subjecting oneself to the natural man. Not all sexuality needs to be “put off.” Only sexuality that is outside the bounds our Heavenly Father has given us is unrighteous and therefore scripturally considered sensual. Similarly, if one refers to the entry on Satan / the Devil in the “Guide to the Scriptures” to help figure out what is meant by “devilish”, you see it talk about at least three things, none of which directly refer to sexuality: • Rebellion against God • Deceiver • Desires others to be miserable as he is Saying that the natural man is carnal, sensual, and devilish and that we must put off the natural man, when properly understood, has nothing to do with sexuality properly expressed. |
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Post by jjp on Jan 20, 2020 21:07:27 GMT -6
Lots of good points. For me ... in my perfect world, my wife and I would have great sex twice a week—at least. AND occasionally a weekend with more creativity and many sessions. My wife desires less sex. We both work, serve in the church and have multiple kids at home. We’re healthy, enjoy each other’s company etc. She desires sex a lot less than I do. In fac, she can live without it for weeks, even months at a time.
In the church, I do think it’s culturally ok for wives to say “I’m just not that into sex and I’m tired out and feel unsexy from child-rearing, work, etc.” At the same time, man who says “I love you and feel most loved when making love with you and our regular sexual connection helps me feel emotionally validated and also, the physical release helps me cope with the stresses of life” has to accept that she’s not that into it and deal with it.
The husband can deal with this by giving ultimatums which can result in divorce or making things worse or possibly the ultimatum magically solves everything. I’m doubtful of this working much. Also, the husband can wait, hope, pray, work on himself. Anyway, I think men and women both have some pretty challenging cultural expectations to deal with and most of us fall short. None of us are as charming, selfless, wise or faithful as we wish we were all the time. Our spouses are also imperfect. We need to not vilify each other. We need to stop shaming each other for our desires (or lack there of). We need to work together, be kind and patient as much as possible and compromise. Maybe we encourage the horny spouse to rub one out in bed with us when the other is just to tired to get it on. I think we have some unrealistic cultural expectations with gender roles and sexuality in the church but I don’t blame the church. Money issues are similar. Some couples feel inadequate and unfaithful to have the wife work instead of staying home as in past generations. We need to do our best and be kind and creative. Also, when we find a middle way we need to thank God for it and as appropriate help others overcome frustration and shame they may have for not living up to the image they’ve inherited.
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sexually frustrated
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Post by sexually frustrated on May 11, 2021 16:46:08 GMT -6
I feel the church has said sex (in marriage) is good and holy. However, they have not specifically addressed this matter of refusal. I have spoken to many men in sexless marriages. Many of their spouses refuse to discuss it further with them. It is a topic of conflict anytime it is brought up. Outside of the church, they would encourage leaving. A lot of men have considered that path. However, most do not want that. They want a solution that will bring them closer together, not tear them apart. I have wondered what would happen if somebody frankly spoke about it with their church leader, what, if anything would happen? I think leaders may be extra cautious around the matter because it could be seen as forcing women to have sex with their husbands. The other thought I had is adultery, and other sexual sins, are easy to identify as sinful. However, sexual refusal isn't as clear cut. Similarly, both may be the result of an unhealthy dynamic in the marriage. Sexual refusal could be viewed as an acceptable natural consequence of abusive/unloving behavior. Whereas adultery, while understandable at times, is never ok. Before you can figure out what the issues are and how to solve them, you have to first get one's spouse to be open to the discussion. Are we suggesting women be disciplined until they humble themselves enough to submit to that? Somehow I don't see that as the best course of action. I think for many women, when they have sex, they want to want to have sex. Having sex without desire is not enjoyable for them. Unfortunately, many of these women only desire sex a few times a month or year. It really is a tough call. One I don't think most couples can navigate alone. I know we don't like to hear that we need to be patient, continue to be loving, etc. What we want is to be heard, validated, for things to change for the better. Often times having patience, while we work on our personal worth is the only option we have. |
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Post by KSSunflower on Aug 8, 2021 9:39:55 GMT -6
What sort of situations or scenarios do you imagine where a couple could be celibate and still have a healthy marriage? I mentioned one situation in the post you quoted. There are also relationships where the couple can't have sex anymore, but they continue to love one another and have an immense bond. It's a struggle I'm sure but the marriage can continue to be strong. I'm sure they find other ways to show their affection. I know my last example is an exception but it does show that love supercedes the need for sex in those circumstances. I'm not suggesting under normal conditions a couple should forgo sexual intimacy. I just don't believe it's a requirement for every couple in order to have a healthy marriage. A husband and wife can decide how much emphasis sex will have in their relationship. A healthy marriage is built on friendship, trust, and sharing the same values and goals. Intimacy is part of that. Sex may or may not be. There are exceptions to the general rule that you can’t have a healthy marriage without sex, but they are exceptions that generally take the choice out of the couple’s hands. Sexual intimacy is part of becoming one and I doubt that it’s easy to get the benefits of sex without actually having sex — even if you and your spouse are asexual. Becoming one is not in the act of having sex itself. The church teaches that sexual intimacy is the expression of that union. It is culmination of fitting our lives together in every way, so naturally we desire to be together in that way as well. In the case of asexual person, they would not have that natural desire that we say God plants in all of us. I can't imagine that if an asexual couple decides to marry eachother and did all the work to become one (which would mean they were one about sexuality as well) they couldn't have a healthy marriage. And when you aren’t both asexual, then there will be issues forcing celibacy on any partner who isn’t. True. I think you missed where I said it wouldn't work if one partner desires sex and the other doesn't. My comment wasn't saying sex isn't an important component at all, rather I was saying it isn't necessary in every relationship. I wouldn't suggest an asexual person marry somebody who has sexual desire. If somebody desired to marry an asexual person with full knowledge they'd go without sex I don't see anything wrong with it, so long as they're in agreement. It only becomes an issue when there is disagreement. A little off topic and it may be reviving the “is sex a need or want” debate, but my response to that is we should aim a little higher than mere individual survival. You can say keeping prisoners in dank, dark prison cells and feeding them moldy bread is sufficient for them to survive — therefore anything more can’t be a need — but it sure isn’t how we should be treating our spouse or expecting them to live. I'm in total agreeance here. It's not ok to withhold sex from a spouse that wants and needs sex. That was not the meaning of my words. If a spouse has a need we should be trying to meet it. Husband and wife should come to an agreement on sexual expectations. Understand, what you and your spouse need sexually to have a happy and healthy marriage will differ from what another couples needs sexually for a happy and healthy marriage. In addition to the reasons typically cited for feeling like objects of sexual gratification, I think part of this is due to women not claiming their own sexuality. Too many women, especially in the LDS culture, are sexually passive and don’t actively seek for their own sexual satisfaction or demand it from their spouse. Passive objects are used. Active participants seeking their own fulfillment are not. For some, yes, that can often be the case. However I have felt this at times and very much claim my sexuality. I have felt this when it seemed the only time my h had time for me was when he wanted sex. When I don't feel connected to my husband my desire to have sex with him wanes. I still have sexual desire, but not for him. I need to feel loved when we aren't having sex to feel loved during sex. If he hasn't taken the time to do this work I feel unseen and unheard. I begin to think he doesn't care about me and therfore any sexual advances are for him and not me. That's not necessarily how he feels but that is how it gets interpreted. Husband's need to make sure sex isn't the only way they know how to be romantic and intimate with their wife. |
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Waiting in the wing
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Post by Waiting in the wing on Aug 21, 2021 8:08:30 GMT -6
Thank you so much for bringing up this topic. It is so refreshing to have a discussion about this that is up to date. As I have been struggling in my little to no sex marriage for 22 years. I've learned that there is nothing the more sexual spouse can do if they want to stay in the marriage but their spouse sees no reason to compromise. I believe my spouse would rather ignore the problem. Every time I bring it up it's MY problem not ours and I don't think he'll enter fully understand how important it is to me. That being said he is very much my best friend and in pretty much all other areas we are a perfect match.
I would like to see the church address speaking more openly about sexual desire. But as to what way in not sure.
I am just so grateful to have found this post. Many others through the years mostly nonchristian just encourage leaving the relationship or masterbation which isn't the direction I'm looking to go.
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Post by KSSunflower on Sept 3, 2021 0:53:13 GMT -6
Welcome, waiting in the wing. I hope you'll share your experiences and find support here.
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Post by Utahal on Mar 31, 2023 13:31:14 GMT -6
I know this thread is getting old, but it is interesting. I am sorry to hear that it has been hard to get enough affection over the past 22 years. That is a long time. I have had a similar but different journey. I am a man married to a low-drive woman. Fortunately, she has recognized my needs and is available as needed--however, she also is often not terribley "involved" or interested in the journey. I would like sex to be more than "a warm place to put it", so to speak. We have talked about it, but if the desire isn't there, there is only do much you can do. And fortunately,she really doesn't have an issue with masturbation if I have the need.
As we have gotten older, the one thing we both agree with is that none of this belongs with the bishop. Their biases often only create more problems.
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Post by Veryconfused on Nov 9, 2024 23:34:16 GMT -6
i am a pretty woman, with good genetics; however, I had the measurements of a Barbie doll on our wedding night. I have been married in the Temple for 40 years in a FORCED CELIBATE marriage because my husband "was and is" an ASEXUAL. I have normal needs that he has constantly shamed about, and my husband has told me I need to go talk to the Bishop, read the scriptures when I want to kiss. I'm thinking: "Me? What about you withholding our God given joy and happiness, creating needless temptations in me". If I verbalized it, he'd condemn me harshly. Why would 'I' have to abstain from taking the Sacrement, when a few times,my raging hormones have gotten the best of me during ovulation, and my husband refuses me? I have talked, yelled, given threats, to no avail - he has no needs at all. Any compliance over the 40 years, has only been a "stiff", laying on his back, and not moving! Can you give me any conversation back regarding this? If I go to the Bishop, he is 30 years old, and I'd never hear the end of it; plus, he'd laugh with his councilors, and it would get to their wives, as they are all six good friends. I'm sooo at a loss.
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utah
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Post by utah on Nov 25, 2024 0:45:00 GMT -6
Sorry, veryconfused. That sounds like a rough road to travel. Probably not one I could have stayed on. I think I mentioned this earlier, but I don't think the Bishop should have much space in this conversation. If you need to take matters into your own hand, so to speak, it is none of the Bishops business. Nor is it really your husband's business, either.
Is there a chance you could get hubby to the Dr.? Maybe there is an underlying medical condition that has affected his libido.
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