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Post by KSSunflower on Nov 30, 2018 16:31:48 GMT -6
Recently I was having a conversation online about whether fornication is a sin. This guy said that it depends on the source of your definition. He went on to say if your source is the bible then it is a sin. If you use Webster's dictionary, then it is not a sin.
I thought he was saying it wasn't a sin if you go by Webster because it doesn't explicitly say that in the definition. Fornication is defined as consensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other.
That was not why he said it was not a sin in that context though. Later, he mentioned that the Greek word for fornication is porneia, it means prostitution, not unmarried intercourse. The Greek manuscripts use porneia. The context of porneia means the list of sexual sins, of which unmarried sex is absent. He was defining fornication as prostitution. I can see how he would then think that it is not a sin if it is simply between two unmarried individuals.
He also mentioned people in the Old Testament having concubines and not being told it was a sin. My question is, is it ever disapproved of in the Bible, or only in the Book of Mormon? Also, if you'd like to comment about fornication or the Greek manuscript translation, please do.
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Post by edshubby on Dec 1, 2018 17:17:46 GMT -6
Recently I was having a conversation online about whether fornication is a sin. This guy said that it depends on the source of your definition. He went on to say if your source is the bible then it is a sin. If you use Webster's dictionary, then it is not a sin. ... Later, he mentioned that the Greek word for fornication is porneia, it means prostitution, not unmarried intercourse. The Greek manuscripts use porneia. The context of porneia means the list of sexual sins, of which unmarried sex is absent. He was defining fornication as prostitution. I can see how he would then think that it is not a sin if it is simply between two unmarried individuals. He also mentioned people in the Old Testament having concubines and not being told it was a sin. My question is, is it ever disapproved of in the Bible, or only in the Book of Mormon? Also, if you'd like to comment about fornication or the Greek manuscript translation, please do. The above provide some information. I think that, as in most languages, Greek has words that can have shades of meaning — variations on a central theme — especially when you consider literal interpretations vs metaphorical ones, symbolism, analogies, etc. While I am sure that in some cases porneia literally means the buying/selling of sexual relations, I think it could also be reasonably used to mean fornication. For example, one interpretation of “prostituting oneself” is to compromise some virtue for something of less value (often money, but not necessarily). You could say that Esau prostituted his inheritance for a bowl of porridge, but just because sex isn’t involved doesn’t suddenly make this a wise idea. Pre-marital sex is often done for reasons that are, shall we say, less than altruistic and based more in the satisfaction of carnal desires than true interpersonal devotion and commitment. He’s also forgetting some important context. Elsewhere in the Bible (Deut. 22:28-29?) it mentions how if two unmarried people have sex, they are required to marry / are married, without the possibility of divorce. Under such a law, does any distinction between pre-marital sex being sinful or not sinful really matter? The end result is that you’re now married and any further sex will either condoned or will be sinful adultery (if with another person besides their new spouse). Once this link between “have sex + get found out = married” is broken, then suddenly it becomes more relevant to determine whether pre-marital sex is sinful or not — it’s no longer a given that you’ll be married soon thereafter. So even if this is how things were written anciently, it doesn’t mean that such a prohibition wouldn’t be justified today. Ask the guy if he would be willing to marry the women he has pre-marital sex with. If not, well, then I’m not going to rely on his interpretation of porneia. Interesting tidbit: it’s called fornication because of the arches that prostitutes used to gather under to shelter from the rain in Rome. (An arched leaf is said to be fornicated — forni- actually means arched.) As for concubines, that has always been a bit of a mystery to me. |
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Post by KSSunflower on Dec 2, 2018 14:03:28 GMT -6
edshubby,
You make a good point about there being shades of meaning and needing to put things into context. I had considered that it may have been used figuratively.
I found that verse in deuteronomy to be interesting. There doesn't seem to be much hullabaloo about two unmarried individuals having sex before marriage. They do require them to get married, but it doesn't appear to be as dire as something like adultery, or other sexual sins.
I do still wonder how having concubines relates to all of this. It isn't the same as polygamy. Why was it allowed and why don't we see any disapproval in the Bible. After looking it up, concubines were like a second class wife. They didn't get the same rights as wives.
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Post by edshubby on Dec 2, 2018 14:41:50 GMT -6
I found that verse in deuteronomy to be interesting. There doesn't seem to be much hullabaloo about two unmarried individuals having sex before marriage. They do require them to get married, but it doesn't appear to be as dire as something like adultery, or other sexual sins. I think it’s the requirement that they get married that makes the difference. In some religions and cultures, there is a betrothal period and the marriage ceremony. The betrothal is still considered binding. There are various degrees of permissibility or requirement to live together, including the beginning of sexual intimacy, during the betrothal period, depending on the religion/culture. However, being sexually intimate becomes a de facto betrothal, sort of like a common law marriage is established in some states if you live together “as husband and wife” for a defined period of time. The implication, I think, is that if they have premarital sex without the intention to marry, then they *are* prostituting themselves — giving up their body to someone who is not and will not be their spouse, for something less than what is owed (marriage). |
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jack
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Post by jack on Dec 5, 2018 18:26:23 GMT -6
I do still wonder how having concubines relates to all of this. It isn't the same as polygamy. Why was it allowed and why don't we see any disapproval in the Bible. After looking it up, concubines were like a second class wife. They didn't get the same rights as wives. [/quote]
This is how it was explained to me, by a former President of a major university institute; A concubine was a legal and lawful wife, but her children had no part of the inheritance because they came into the marriage without a dowry.
In Old Testament times, the first born male son received the right of inheritance, only if their mother was a wife.
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